TOP SECRET
secret
BY AUTHORITY OF
[EPOC STUDIOS AGENCY]
PREPARED & MANAGED BY:
DYLAN WILHELMSSON
SR. ACCT MANAGER
initials
date
March
11
2025
EPOC STUDIOS AGENCY
San Diego, CA.

Scaling a Clothing Brand From 0 to 8 Figures From Experience Managing $300m+ in Revenue

Hello, I write this document to simply share my perspective on scaling streetwear brands from 0 to 8 figures. Some may say it’s a unique perspective as we have scaled over 100 streetwear brands in the last 4 years as an agency and we contribute to a healthy 9 figures in annual revenue across all of our services. Let me give a little back story to provide some context, before we get to the meat and potatoes. My intention is to be direct and provide clarity to this ambiguous term we refer to as scale…  If you don’t want to hear me blabber about our agency's backstory feel free to skip to page 5.

Back in 2016, I started my first streetwear brand… Sold it to kids at school out of my trunk and built enough capital from that to get into the reselling game. I was back dooring supreme for a couple years which then transcended into a deep love for all things fashion and culture. Early on in my entrepreneurial journey I was lucky enough to meet some amazing people who have really helped me set my path in this crazy space we work in.

Around 2019, I got into drop shopping with some close friends and we used all of our resell money to invest into spinning up single product stores with a focus on Facebook ads. We would simply order samples, create eye-catching content and build an amazing Shopify store to separate ourselves in a highly competitive environment. Our hard work and sleepless nights led us to eventually find some luck with a couple of products. Once we got some strategies down we stumbled on masks and thermometers during covid 19 which was a crazy time. We were super early to the show and were able to scale our Facebook ads to 7 figures in the first month. Naturally things started to feel very serious… It forced me to dive very deep into the interworking of Facebook ads platform and suck out as much efficiency as possible as I had literal gold on my hands at the time. A benefit to this early success was that I was able to get into conversations with the big dogs at the time. I can’t say thank you enough for the people who took me under their wing and taught me how to sustain this momentum.

After the gold rush was over, I felt lost and needed to fill this missing gap that I couldn’t explain. Following some soul searching I came to the realization that I simply need to sell what I love and not have it be money driven as weird as that probably sounds. I figured at the time… If you work hard enough at something you’re passionate about with no ego at hand… It’ll eventually all work out one way or another.

My next step was getting back into streetwear with my newly learned knowledge. I simply wanted to first understand the market through my lens of experience with paid ads and scaling Ecom brands. I launched a brand with a wide range of clothing available that was engineered to hit all types of audience pockets to gather the highest quality data possible over a wide umbrella of interest to better understand where the opportunity was. We kept our heads down for quite some time and built an amazing paid media strategy that allowed us to scale to some unexpectedly crazy heights. Man do I miss those days… this allowed us to be lethal as we knew who was buying, what they were buying, why they were buying, and how they wanted to buy on product category level.

As that brand gained momentum I made the move to LA with the ambition to stumble across some new opportunities. At the time I jumped off the cliff and moved in with like minded driven people. One of them happened to be in artist management or a couple big time rappers. One of my best friends till this day I can’t thank him enough for taking the risk and putting his bets on me. He was able to get me into conversations with various artists to incubate merch brands for them. The success from this quickly led to word of mouth spreading about our significant expertise in the paid ads portion of things. We then naturally got introduced to some brands that already had a foundation set and were generating amazing revenue but couldn’t take it further. At this time, I was freelancing on paid ads for a handful of brands and running the ship on a pretty significant artist merch brand. I got burnt out quickly and knew it was time for a course correction.

That’s when I made my best business decision to date… Me and my partner Bailey brought on all our day 1 friends. I know what you’re thinking… terrible idea right? It was honestly an amazing idea because we simply hired off character and wanted people we could trust. With the small 5 man group we had, we took the necessary time (around a year) to train them and get them ready to operate at a high level before they could take responsibility for scaling brands. The minute we jumped off the cliff, we learned to fly… QUICK! We grew very fast after seeing some amazing initial success as we perfected our approach to the drop model we probably are all familiar with by now if you are reading this article. Some may argue this but I can confidently say, we were the first people to really deep dive the strategies behind building hype for product release with high in the funnel paid ads strategies. We were going crazy  at the time… 500k in 2 minutes… Sell outs in 30 seconds… crashed Shopify stores because of hundreds of thousands of visitors trying to access new products on the site.

We will get into this later but we quickly learned that email/sms was a huge piece to the puzzle as our main objective to our strategy was driving leads pre drop to an opt-in form and then nurturing those leads with pre release strategies so on drop day… people receive our live announcements now. We were able to lean into our data analytics background and find ways to attribute revenue from leads generated with paid ads which was considered black magic at the time. On that note we were also able to get very predictive with budgeting and forecasting going into releases which allowed us to place bigger bets on our pre release traffic that we drove which all carried a delayed return on cash invested. We invested all of our time and money into perfecting our craft early on which luckily paid dividends in the long run.

As we started to gain awareness from bigger brands that wanted to see what we were up to, we quickly realized we had to beef up our service delivery and deepen our line up. Since the start, the goal has always been to bridge the gap between art and data. We started off with a very strong analytics and finance background that we were forced to learn from scaling our own brands which was nice because it catapulted us deep into that direction but we honestly lacked in the creative department. Originally we would help direct content with our clients and advise roll out + what we wanted to use in terms of media for the paid ads. We quickly realized that there was a disconnect here.

We went all in on the creative side and hired 10 amazingly talented graphics designers, built a roster of amazing photo and video production gods, and were able to build a deep network of pages and celebrities/influencers to be used as ambassadors or for external promotion. We went balls deep as some may say lol, but it paid off 10 fold. We were able to pair our amazing team with the resources they needed to analyze the creative on all channels and derive insight to be able to continuously optimize and open up new audience clusters.

The impact we saw from this initiative was mind blowing… This is when we started to kinda realize that we may have cracked the code. This also increased our confidence as we started to bring brands over the 8 figure year line that may have started working with us when they were barely scarping a couple hundred thousand a year. We then doubled down on this confidence and built an insanely strong PR team where we are then able to source the most pop-in creators, celebrities, pages and publications to promote our products and our innovative approaches we were taking to scale.

At this point we’re offering all services ranging from basic Facebook media buying to hype beast articles and mass whitelisted affiliate programs. As of recently we’ve really started to crack the code on real virality and brand presence… I’m talking millions of likes and shares on product roll outs quoting to multi million dollar days. This has also naturally led us to connecting our clients and network pricing together with some ground breaking collaborations that have had the culture in awe. I hate talking about myself and our business but just wanted to cut through the bullshit (there is a ton in the streetwear space lol) and show you guys that we really do this.

My intention on writing this document and creating the vault is to share past learnings and current learnings that could help someone already making money move to that next level. I’m going to provide an overview on scale and the different stages a brand might be and things to consider at each of those stages. There are a lot of similar issues and road blocks across the board that brands reach at certain levels that I want to shine some light on. Damn this is gonna piss off the gurus lol. DOnt get fed bull shit. Now time for the fun stuff.

I’ll break down everything into categories- if u want to save some time, please scroll to that category that you fall under. I'm gonna keep this loose as I want to have fun writing it. I'm going to focus a lot more on the early stages as the higher stages are what we focus on more in the newsletter and within our agency for clients.

My goal is to keep data out of this document. I try to stay away from all theory and the majority of concepts and strategies in this document I can prove works with data across 100+ brands. The newsletter will have the real nitty gritty data backed topics. This document is simply to provide an overview. If you question anything in this article or want to see the data that backs these claims mixed in with our agency's insight- you should probably be signed up for the paid newsletter. For the rest of you… I’ll admit, you gotta kindly blindly trust in these concepts.

Also to mention, our services as of 2024 are only catered to brands doing healthy 7 figures or start up brands that have high leverage. I’m truly just opening my brain in this document with no positive gain in mind. If I can even help 1 person that stumbles across this, I would consider that a win.

Early stages (0-6 figures per year)

Overview

I’ll be honest, from what I’ve seen… this is the make or break stage. When you have some time, look at Shopify's data on how many people make it past certain order thresholds on your Shopify Home Screen where it tells you the percentile you sit in. I understand every situation is different when starting a brand as some may have more leverage than others so I’m going to keep it decently broad in this phase. By levers, I mean capital, audience, data, network and experience.

I would say, when you’re starting off you want to put yourself in the best position to win early on. First and foremost, make sure you are providing something unique to the market. In our space there is so much piggy backing. If you want an honest stab at being able to scale to 8 figures and have longevity you will keep running into road blocks if you can’t find originality. And I gotta say from personal experience, it’s a lot more fulfilling to do something original. Just take a look around, observe your day to day life. If we are talking about clothing… think about how you dress. Think about how others dress. From what I've seen the best brands are simply built by a kid in his parents garage who hand sews or screen prints a product that they want to wear for themselves. I’ll just leave it at that.

If you are setting yourself up for a get rich quick play, this is not the article to be reading.. we’re talking about scaling brands to 8 figures with longevity.

Community Creation

Next to the product, it’s a good move to establish a community early on. Community is a broad term but I will share what it means to me. Community is the audience type that you are creating for, its activities these audiences partake in, the other brands they like, the music they listen to, how they shop, how they engage with brands, and ultimately how they talk about brands. Once you can dig very deep and understand this insanely well, figure out how you can serve your audience things they like and bring people together to build personal connections around the brand. That personal connection may be how the brand engages with the customer, the customer who meets another customer on the street wearing the same brand, the activities they partake in while wearing the product, the experiences they share with the product, the notable people wearing the product that they can resonate with.

Once you tap into this, keep it natural and on the fly. As of 2024… the personable brands who engage with their communities seem to be winning in terms of MoM growth.

Some great platforms to engage with your community can be broad case channels on insta, private stories, private instagram accounts, discords, WhatsApp groups, live events, and email newsletters. The goal is to bring people together wherever possible and provide them a common interest in the brand. Whether it’s digital or IRL it’ll go a long way. DO the things that don’t scale.

Audience Building

You need to think about everything in terms of audience clusters. The technical term for it is ERFM clusters - engagement, recency, frequency and monetary value. But let me break this down...

Think of a circle drawn in the sand. You've got most of your shells packed together in the middle, with some spread out towards the edges, and random shells scattered outside the circle. If you needed to find the best shells quick, you'd obviously start with that cluster in the middle, not the random ones spread across the beach. Those middle shells are easier to sort through to find the good ones.

Now think of those shells as customers and that circle as your brand's main interest. Like if your brand is built on skating, underground rap, and footwear - those interests create your circle in the sand.

The goal is simple: start with the shells in the middle of your circle (your core audience), then work your way out to find more shells (new customers) and make your circle bigger over time. I know this might be hard to picture so here is a diagram of what I mean:

When starting on your brand simply focus on your core demographic but also consider when I run out of audience in this core demographic, is there other audiences that I can open up with ease and subtle overlap between my current audience. The trick is to find audiences and interest with some overlap but not a ton. It’s a game of weighing the options between opportunity and safety. The interests with high overlap will be safe vs the interests with low overlap will have a high opportunity. This kinda naturally leans us to our next part… media buying.

Paid Ads for Audience/Revenue Growth

Personally I wouldn’t use ads at this stage in my brand if I am cold starting it with no leverage. I would try to build it organically but I’ll give the sauce if I was absolutely forced.

Similar to the discussion above with audience clusters and interest I take that into consideration with my paid ads strategy. As you will learn from this document… When it comes to media buying, it’s all about matching the objective of the business and building a stage around the business current situation and future wants/needs.

To start off I would keep it simple. If you're truly cold starting the brand (no influencer/celeb placements, no viral stolen product idea, no past day) I would lean into interest only for targeting on conversion campaigns with a mix of boost post spend. Like I said, I'm keeping this section vague in terms of 0-19k per month as there are so many ways to do it but here’s a direct approach.

ABO campaign, 3 ad sets ($10-$100 budget each), for targeting each ad set is an individual interest (if cold starting). If I have one of the couple of levers (data, social proof, pre verified winning product) I would do one ad set-broad no targeting, one ad set with 3-4 interests in it as a cluster (audience size around 100m) and lastly one ad seat as a single interest of my perceived strongest interest. Keep it at 1-3 creative per ad set active at a time depending on budget. Rule of thumb is around $30  per creative in testing to decide if it’s a winner or not. So build a. budget pacing plan accordingly. I would prefer to get my tests done in under 3 days. I would launch all of this on the lowest cost auto bid. Also to mention, for tracking in these stages just use the normal pixel set up in Shopify with the Facebook app and set data sharing to maximum. No need to invest into 3rd party platforms or use utmost in these stages.

Now let’s say things start working simply double the ad set budget every couple of days if it’s profitable. If you try to double it again and it turns profitable… bring it back to the previous budget and cut underperforming creative to open up room for new creative and then try scaling it back up with stronger creative. This media buying structure will support you on the way up to $330-$500 in daily spend.

If you started with single interest and you get sales profitably try launching an interest stack first and if that performs launch and broad ad set all with your winning creative as your vertically scaling budgets in your pre existing single interest ad sets. If either board or your interest stack don’t work- turn them off and revisit them later when you have more data. Preferably you want about 50 conversions before it even makes sense to take a stab at.

I would also mix in boost post spend using interest targeting to gain social proof around posts. I would weigh my boost spend at double of what I am spending on ads. I would value awareness, impressions and engagement in these early stages over direct sales. If you need to scale quickly and have something proven going for you, put the majority of budget into conversions and not boost spend. It is very important to understand the ratio of boost spend compared to conversions… Like I said personally I would spend double on boost compared to conversions in the early stages where audience growth is a higher priority objective.

Now let’s talk about if the campaign does perform. If you simply don’t see any results after spending a couple hundred you need to re-evaluate. First course of action if you launched the second option with an interest cluster and broad ad set, I would cut the broad ad set and interest stack and leave the single interest. I would then launch the same creative one being tested from the start with two more individual interests. Take the concepts above when choosing interest and choose stuff with a 7 on the opportunity scale and a 3 on the risk side if we were to put a number scale to it. If this still doesn’t work after an additional couple hundred in spend. It’s time to rethink creativity. Start diving into the concepts above and just keep testing on those 3 individual interests till you find something that works.

If you still don’t get any purchases after heavy creative testing, it may be a social proof problem or a product problem. Shoot for those hail Maries on trying to get cool people wearing it by just giving it out for free or paying for placements. If you see no luck with this it may be time to re-evaluate the product which is hard to accept sometimes but it’s all part of the process. Trial and error is the real secret sauce lol. Be willing to emotionally detach where needed.

Creative to Ignite Scale

For creativity I can give a definitive answer in these stages as there’s really no rhyme or reason to what works so be open to trying all types of things. The only way to find what works is to test. Just think back to that core audience we were talking about and make sure to understand the type of content that customers would engage with. In terms of formats I would look into concrete flat lays, white background product shots, model shots, life style/studio content bits, photos of customers or celebrities/influencers wearing it, reels showing bets on production of product, engagement farming formats that are built to provide an engaging visual experience and not sell the product (think a skate clip, or an edit of cars drifting).

You want to look at content in two segments with a cross over in the middle ground. Content that gets customers to convert and content that gets customers to engage. In our newsletter we go into much depth and provide real data on what type of content converts best for your agency's brand and also what content gets engaged with. But we gotta keep that onwards yak. But think very hard about this once. If you are trying to convert cash in the early stages, build content very far left on the side that it is built to get engagement and build content very hard right that is built to convert. Stay away from the stuff that tries to accomplish both. Reason being is that your dollars will be best spent on boost for content that is made to get engagement where content built to convert well works best on sales campaigns. For all content that is built to convert KEEP IT A SINGLE ASSET PLACEMENT ON INSTAGRAM FEED AND NOT A CAROUSEL. You will thank me later. Now I understand there is a middle ground here- not gonna lie our best performing creative is flat lays on a concrete background. This is best performing across.the board on both boost post and conversions. SO take this with a grain of salt but use this theory when trying to understand how to best invest your dollars on ad content and campaign objectives.

Pre-Order vs. Pre-Made

And for our next topic- the most frequently asked question in this phase. Pre order or pre-made. My honest answer to this is if you can’t afford pre made or you can’t get creative enough to get a couple units on hand at low cost… you shouldn’t be starting a brand in the first place. I'm a true believer of having skin in the game and putting your money where your mouth is. It will force you to design better products if you have to self fund the initial inventory. Keep the incentives aligned for yourself. And if you have money tied up in inventory but will force you to go that much harder. To also mention this will set you up for the long run once you do start acquiring customers. Those first customers are your most important so make sure to provide a positive experience. Your brands integrity is all you got in the end of the day and long shipping times because you chose to do the pre order method will fuck you in the long run. This shit isn’t supposed to be easy. Don’t believe the ATL money glitch guys lol. Pre order will work initially but we are talking about longevity here. In our newsletter we will make sure to have an article about pre order vs pre made with data to back the difference in long term performance. The data is staggering.

With this being said, be smart about inventory. The last thing you want is unsold inventory sitting in your warehouse. Even nine-figure brands struggle with inventory management - you'll never get it perfect, but you can be strategic about it.

Drops vs. 24/7 Evergreen

This brings us into our next most frequently asked question- Drop based or 24/7? I'm honestly both ways on this one and it truly comes down to whether you are doing pre order or premade. I think drop based brands are great and can be scaled far but I will admit you do start to hit a bit of a glass ceiling a lot sooner than a 24/7 brand per se. My favorite model right now and what we see performing best is a hybrid model. This is where you always have core products available and you do limited product drops to feed the hype into the core 24/7 items available. If you are pre ordering inventory this is the easiest model to be able to manage risk and will be the best set up if paid ads are a big piece of your marketing strategy. In the early stages you are simply trying to build your core set of products which requires you to play at low risk and order on a wide range of things at low volume. Once you find winning skews or grade A inventory- just simply place another order on those products. If you go out of stock on that product while you are waiting on an order to come in… build hype around a restock. For products that are more risky order even lower stock in hopes of a quick sell out implying hype and demand around new concepts which could be the catalyst to momentum that new product needs to be considered a winner down the road.

PR/Seeding

Something to mention outside of media buying and content strategy. I think the biggest lever to focus on in the stage outside of the product is the people wearing it. Do everything you can to get your product into as many closets as possible. Be mindful of the exposure you will receive from the products that are in peoples closets but don’t get hung up on it as more is truly merrier. What I mean by this is, try to get the people who get your product early to post about it but at the same time don't jeopardize the long term relationship for the quick post. I've seen some huge brands that build amazing relationships with not only their customers but celebrities early on that 5-10 years down the road post it all the time for free just because they love the brand. Don’t forget tho, in this space money talks and bull shit walks. You just gotta read the situation properly.

Customer Engagement/Re-Engagement

Second to this, the next best lever is engaging with your customers. I don’t care if you only have 5 or 1000 customers… DM every single one of them and build a relationship. This goes so much longer than people really think. Also engage with people on story, reels and in the comments. Make it engaging for them and fun. Make them feel like they are a part of something… this is what community is about. MAKE SURE TO ESTABLISH IT EARLY. The quickest growth I have seen always comes from within.

On this note, unless you are doing above 25k per month. Email marketing really doesn’t make sense. I would give sms a stab before email any day. More direct and personal. Both can be effective ways of engaging with customers but be mindful of your list sizes and if it actually makes sense for you in terms of time and money. You can always revisit it down the road if it doesn’t work for you early on.

Website

Also in these stages don’t worry too much about your website. I'd recommend getting a pre-built theme from someone like Seaggs (link on last page of document) and setting that up + customizing it yourself. It’s easy and will force you to understand your way around Shopify. Random note but put a ton of time and effort into your email/sms opt in page. Very very important you have this dialed for the long term.

Keep Fueling Growth

If you have something that works don’t get comfortable-keep pushing boundaries. This is super important. Things can truly change over night. Always have more aces up your sleeve. The minute things start to go dry you should have a plan of attack ready to deploy that you took what time to do RnD on and you know well. This is the biggest area where I see brands fail. If you are having a hard time with new ideas and re-evaluating your game plan for when things start to go dry, maybe its time to consider hiring an agency, consultant or joining groups where people are in the same situation to share ideas. The areas where I would focus on doubling down for growth would be in the order- customer experience, product, PR/Organic growth, content, media buying.

Don’t buy the lambo once you start seeing a little bit of profit. Re-invest the money back into growth. Go improve your shipping times, throw a pop up, hire a customer service team, delegate your production, hire a designer, drop a bag on that celebrity placement you always wanted, get a long form high production video made, bring on a consultant, hire an agency. Save the lavish lifestyle for when you get to a point where you don’t want to scale further. Great scale requires cash… don’t burn it up. It will literally out your growth in a choke hold. This is truly the leading cause of failed brands. Over the last 7 years we have seen it happen over and over again.

Some Random Sauce

To kinda wrap up this section I will leave you with some mind bending sauce that will allow you to grow hack effectively. Check out this thing called lead enforce. You can scrape competitors' followings on instagram and extract a large amount of users' emails, first and last name. You can then use these audience lists as custom audiences in Facebook. If you apply audience expansion to these custom audiences it will run similar to an interest or an LLA. If you want to test these alongside your simple interest, we’ve seen it hit really hard for us. Just make sure to have audience expansion selected on the ad set level or else the audience sizes will be too small. You can also stack these audiences if audience sizes are an issue.

You can also test out objectives such as lead gen, traffic, and engagement to supplement boost spend. I would not recommend doing this unless you have a very strong understanding of paid ads. It can work against you very negatively if you don’t approach it right. Maybe consult an agency on this one.

Also another random thing to squeeze some extra juice out of this phase is this app called live recovery. If you're fluent with klaviyo and are comfortable navigating it, I would recommend manually setting up email flows and sms flows in this phase. If you're not comfortable with this and don't want to hire an agency just use live recovery. It’s an AI cart check out recovery assistant. They receive a text from an AI assistant essentially trying to recover the customer's cart. We have seen massive success with this.

As we start to creep over the 6-7 figure a year horizon the mind set completely adjusts and the practices become very different when it comes to keeping those MoM gains going up.

Lastly I want to mention, take everything you hear from anywhere out there with a crazy grain of salt. The truth is, all strategies work. There is no right or wrong way. It simply comes down to what you implement, how you implement it, and when you implement it. I'm simply trying to provide general patterns that can be backed by data on what we see that works.

Compounding Momentum Stage (6 to 7 Figures Per Year)

To keep it transparent my team won’t let me go very deep into this section as this is the information we tend to keep for the newsletter specifically. It simply wouldn’t be fair to expose all the strategies that the people on our newsletter and in our agency are receiving. I'm gonna provide an overview to show you the perspective on scaling through this phase alongside a handful of resources that can be very useful to you in this phase.

So the whole concept of scaling from 6 to 7 figures is built on a couple of key pillars. I included topics with bullets of deliverables you should try to accomplish under each topic. My whole theory on this phase is delegation. Primarily you want to find out what you're best at and delegate the rest. If you’re good at marketing and that’s what you love to do- hold onto as much of it as you can before you need to hire an agency and lean into these topics and gain the knowledge and implement accordingly. The newsletter we have is a great resource for this. Now if marketing is not the fun part for you, definitely hire an agency. If you choose to go the non agency route- I would look to delegate customer service, fulfillment, production management, design, and micro segments to marketing like creative, PR, media buying, new channels etc.

Also to mention I invested in a fulfillment business with some of my close friends if you want to check it out- They handle customer service also (rapidly). We also have some great production managers I will link on the last page. (Shayan) (Jack)

Something to consider when hiring an agency is if they aren’t advising on these things within their respective topics- they are steering you in the wrong direction.

At the end of the day if you don’t like any of these ideas please please please don’t implement them. Protect brand image at all costs. This is just everything you can do to scale in this phase with no regard to brand identity.

Getting Real With Your Data

-Full funnel introduction

-Skew segmentation

-Manual bidding introduction

-Diversified TOF objectives

Account Structuring For High Spend

-Full funnel introduction

-Skew segmentation

-Manual bidding introduction

-Diversified TOF objectives

Amplifying Creating Insights

-Understanding the psych behind the customer journey (link influence book)

-Leverage data from past creative tests

-Key metrics to watch

-Visual reps of creative data (motion app)

-1st principles thinking when deriving insight

Building a Creative Fly Wheel

-Hiring gfx designers for stills

-In house short form creators (Billo)

-System for Ecom photos and flatlays

-Consistent ambassadors for life style content

Optimizing Retention Channels

-Dialing in hype strategy with campaigns

-Nurturing strategy in place for down periods

-Have flows go deeper

-Optimization of opt in forms

Opening New Customer Acquisition Channels

-Tik Tok Paid

-Tik Tok shop

-Google

-Pinterest organic

PR Pushes to Build Hype and Relevancy

-Page promotion strategy

-Influencer strategy

-Mass customer UGC strategy

Forecasting/Inventory Management (Marketing Plan Based)

-Building a marketing calendar (click up)

-Building roll outs

-Creating artificial peaks

-Using data to predict performance on updates in strategy and product

-Managing a daily PNL (PSM sheet)

Lay Up CRO

-Given conversation rate stuff that doesn’t require testing

-Announcement bars

-Sizing charts

-Return process on product page

-1 click check out

-ETC. (Make a consolidated checklist)

Solidifying Momentum (7 to 8 Figures Per Year)

To keep it super simple in regard to scaling from 7 to 8 figures. This is the time to gain as many perspectives as possible. You definitely should be working with an agency at this level even its just to simply bounce ideas off of them. If you have not experienced scaling at these levels on the marketing side, it is smart to lean into someone who can help. At Epoc this is the range where we thrive and have our fun. Use the cash you're making and doubling down and finding the best talent out there. This is the time to bring great minds together as it becomes a treacherous territory to navigate and have fun trying to do it single handed. This truly is the time when growth is created outside of the ad account.

Also a note on the mental, you do not want to try to navigate this stuff. It will be information overload lol.

Going Even Deeper Into Your Data

-GA4 data layer set up (elevar)

-LTV insights (retention X)

-Capturing unsubbed emails (Retention.com)

-Custom dashboards for unique insight

International Market Opening

-Page promotion from other pages

-International targeting on paid ads

-Ad creative angled for other countries

-Content created in specific countries with creators

-Landing pages for specific countries (landing page builder)

-3pl solutions internationally (rapid)

Media Buying

-Ml insights + rules with (magicx)

-Gen Ai creative

-Extended full funnel

-Multiple ad accounts (zombete)

Deep Audience Opening

-Page promotion from new pages for new audience

-New audience targeting on paid ads

-Ad creative angled for new audiences

-Content created with creators specific to new audiences

-Landing pages for specific audiences

IRL Activations

-Pop ups

-Complexcon

-Store opening

-Warehouse sales

-Parties (ISADORA)

-Billboards

-Wheat pasting

Collabs

-Obscure enterprise collabs

-Similar brand audience collars

-Celebrity product collabs

-Licensing deals

Opening Low Priority Channels

-Pinterest Paid

-SEO

-Twitter

-Youtube

-Tik tok live shopping

Analytical CRO

-Just hire a CRO agency- trust me on this one

-Data backed forecasting/inventory management

-Advanced forecasting methods

-data backed inventory management

-LTV cohort analysis

-Marketing calendar input

Advanced PR

-Celebrity placements

-Articles published

-Mass influencer strategy

-White listing strategy

AOV increasers

-Bundling

-Tiered offers

-Post purchase upsells (Zipify OCU)

Resources

0-6 FIGURES:

1.Seaggs (Shopify themes)

2.Lead Enforce (Instagram audience scraping tool)

3.Klaviyo (Email & SMS marketing)

4.Live Recovery (AI cart checkout recovery)

Production References:

Shayan: Shayan@trofeoventuresllc.com

EPOC STUDIOS AGENCY
San Diego, CA.

Scaling a Clothing Brand From 0 to 8 Figures From Experience Managing $300m+ in Revenue

Hello, I write this document to simply share my perspective on scaling streetwear brands from 0 to 8 figures. Some may say it’s a unique perspective as we have scaled over 100 streetwear brands in the last 4 years as an agency and we contribute to a healthy 9 figures in annual revenue across all of our services. Let me give a little back story to provide some context, before we get to the meat and potatoes. My intention is to be direct and provide clarity to this ambiguous term we refer to as scale…  If you don’t want to hear me blabber about our agency's backstory feel free to skip to page 5.

Back in 2016, I started my first streetwear brand… Sold it to kids at school out of my trunk and built enough capital from that to get into the reselling game. I was back dooring supreme for a couple years which then transcended into a deep love for all things fashion and culture. Early on in my entrepreneurial journey I was lucky enough to meet some amazing people who have really helped me set my path in this crazy space we work in.

Around 2019, I got into drop shopping with some close friends and we used all of our resell money to invest into spinning up single product stores with a focus on Facebook ads. We would simply order samples, create eye-catching content and build an amazing Shopify store to separate ourselves in a highly competitive environment. Our hard work and sleepless nights led us to eventually find some luck with a couple of products. Once we got some strategies down we stumbled on masks and thermometers during covid 19 which was a crazy time. We were super early to the show and were able to scale our Facebook ads to 7 figures in the first month. Naturally things started to feel very serious… It forced me to dive very deep into the interworking of Facebook ads platform and suck out as much efficiency as possible as I had literal gold on my hands at the time. A benefit to this early success was that I was able to get into conversations with the big dogs at the time. I can’t say thank you enough for the people who took me under their wing and taught me how to sustain this momentum.

After the gold rush was over, I felt lost and needed to fill this missing gap that I couldn’t explain. Following some soul searching I came to the realization that I simply need to sell what I love and not have it be money driven as weird as that probably sounds. I figured at the time… If you work hard enough at something you’re passionate about with no ego at hand… It’ll eventually all work out one way or another.

My next step was getting back into streetwear with my newly learned knowledge. I simply wanted to first understand the market through my lens of experience with paid ads and scaling Ecom brands. I launched a brand with a wide range of clothing available that was engineered to hit all types of audience pockets to gather the highest quality data possible over a wide umbrella of interest to better understand where the opportunity was. We kept our heads down for quite some time and built an amazing paid media strategy that allowed us to scale to some unexpectedly crazy heights. Man do I miss those days… this allowed us to be lethal as we knew who was buying, what they were buying, why they were buying, and how they wanted to buy on product category level.

As that brand gained momentum I made the move to LA with the ambition to stumble across some new opportunities. At the time I jumped off the cliff and moved in with like minded driven people. One of them happened to be in artist management or a couple big time rappers. One of my best friends till this day I can’t thank him enough for taking the risk and putting his bets on me. He was able to get me into conversations with various artists to incubate merch brands for them. The success from this quickly led to word of mouth spreading about our significant expertise in the paid ads portion of things. We then naturally got introduced to some brands that already had a foundation set and were generating amazing revenue but couldn’t take it further. At this time, I was freelancing on paid ads for a handful of brands and running the ship on a pretty significant artist merch brand. I got burnt out quickly and knew it was time for a course correction.

That’s when I made my best business decision to date… Me and my partner Bailey brought on all our day 1 friends. I know what you’re thinking… terrible idea right? It was honestly an amazing idea because we simply hired off character and wanted people we could trust. With the small 5 man group we had, we took the necessary time (around a year) to train them and get them ready to operate at a high level before they could take responsibility for scaling brands. The minute we jumped off the cliff, we learned to fly… QUICK! We grew very fast after seeing some amazing initial success as we perfected our approach to the drop model we probably are all familiar with by now if you are reading this article. Some may argue this but I can confidently say, we were the first people to really deep dive the strategies behind building hype for product release with high in the funnel paid ads strategies. We were going crazy  at the time… 500k in 2 minutes… Sell outs in 30 seconds… crashed Shopify stores because of hundreds of thousands of visitors trying to access new products on the site.

We will get into this later but we quickly learned that email/sms was a huge piece to the puzzle as our main objective to our strategy was driving leads pre drop to an opt-in form and then nurturing those leads with pre release strategies so on drop day… people receive our live announcements now. We were able to lean into our data analytics background and find ways to attribute revenue from leads generated with paid ads which was considered black magic at the time. On that note we were also able to get very predictive with budgeting and forecasting going into releases which allowed us to place bigger bets on our pre release traffic that we drove which all carried a delayed return on cash invested. We invested all of our time and money into perfecting our craft early on which luckily paid dividends in the long run.

As we started to gain awareness from bigger brands that wanted to see what we were up to, we quickly realized we had to beef up our service delivery and deepen our line up. Since the start, the goal has always been to bridge the gap between art and data. We started off with a very strong analytics and finance background that we were forced to learn from scaling our own brands which was nice because it catapulted us deep into that direction but we honestly lacked in the creative department. Originally we would help direct content with our clients and advise roll out + what we wanted to use in terms of media for the paid ads. We quickly realized that there was a disconnect here.

We went all in on the creative side and hired 10 amazingly talented graphics designers, built a roster of amazing photo and video production gods, and were able to build a deep network of pages and celebrities/influencers to be used as ambassadors or for external promotion. We went balls deep as some may say lol, but it paid off 10 fold. We were able to pair our amazing team with the resources they needed to analyze the creative on all channels and derive insight to be able to continuously optimize and open up new audience clusters.

The impact we saw from this initiative was mind blowing… This is when we started to kinda realize that we may have cracked the code. This also increased our confidence as we started to bring brands over the 8 figure year line that may have started working with us when they were barely scarping a couple hundred thousand a year. We then doubled down on this confidence and built an insanely strong PR team where we are then able to source the most pop-in creators, celebrities, pages and publications to promote our products and our innovative approaches we were taking to scale.

At this point we’re offering all services ranging from basic Facebook media buying to hype beast articles and mass whitelisted affiliate programs. As of recently we’ve really started to crack the code on real virality and brand presence… I’m talking millions of likes and shares on product roll outs quoting to multi million dollar days. This has also naturally led us to connecting our clients and network pricing together with some ground breaking collaborations that have had the culture in awe. I hate talking about myself and our business but just wanted to cut through the bullshit (there is a ton in the streetwear space lol) and show you guys that we really do this.

My intention on writing this document and creating the vault is to share past learnings and current learnings that could help someone already making money move to that next level. I’m going to provide an overview on scale and the different stages a brand might be and things to consider at each of those stages. There are a lot of similar issues and road blocks across the board that brands reach at certain levels that I want to shine some light on. Damn this is gonna piss off the gurus lol. DOnt get fed bull shit. Now time for the fun stuff.

I’ll break down everything into categories- if u want to save some time, please scroll to that category that you fall under. I'm gonna keep this loose as I want to have fun writing it. I'm going to focus a lot more on the early stages as the higher stages are what we focus on more in the newsletter and within our agency for clients.

My goal is to keep data out of this document. I try to stay away from all theory and the majority of concepts and strategies in this document I can prove works with data across 100+ brands. The newsletter will have the real nitty gritty data backed topics. This document is simply to provide an overview. If you question anything in this article or want to see the data that backs these claims mixed in with our agency's insight- you should probably be signed up for the paid newsletter. For the rest of you… I’ll admit, you gotta kindly blindly trust in these concepts.

Also to mention, our services as of 2024 are only catered to brands doing healthy 7 figures or start up brands that have high leverage. I’m truly just opening my brain in this document with no positive gain in mind. If I can even help 1 person that stumbles across this, I would consider that a win.

Early stages (0-6 figures per year)

Overview

I’ll be honest, from what I’ve seen… this is the make or break stage. When you have some time, look at Shopify's data on how many people make it past certain order thresholds on your Shopify Home Screen where it tells you the percentile you sit in. I understand every situation is different when starting a brand as some may have more leverage than others so I’m going to keep it decently broad in this phase. By levers, I mean capital, audience, data, network and experience.

I would say, when you’re starting off you want to put yourself in the best position to win early on. First and foremost, make sure you are providing something unique to the market. In our space there is so much piggy backing. If you want an honest stab at being able to scale to 8 figures and have longevity you will keep running into road blocks if you can’t find originality. And I gotta say from personal experience, it’s a lot more fulfilling to do something original. Just take a look around, observe your day to day life. If we are talking about clothing… think about how you dress. Think about how others dress. From what I've seen the best brands are simply built by a kid in his parents garage who hand sews or screen prints a product that they want to wear for themselves. I’ll just leave it at that.

If you are setting yourself up for a get rich quick play, this is not the article to be reading.. we’re talking about scaling brands to 8 figures with longevity.

Community Creation

Next to the product, it’s a good move to establish a community early on. Community is a broad term but I will share what it means to me. Community is the audience type that you are creating for, its activities these audiences partake in, the other brands they like, the music they listen to, how they shop, how they engage with brands, and ultimately how they talk about brands. Once you can dig very deep and understand this insanely well, figure out how you can serve your audience things they like and bring people together to build personal connections around the brand. That personal connection may be how the brand engages with the customer, the customer who meets another customer on the street wearing the same brand, the activities they partake in while wearing the product, the experiences they share with the product, the notable people wearing the product that they can resonate with.

Once you tap into this, keep it natural and on the fly. As of 2024… the personable brands who engage with their communities seem to be winning in terms of MoM growth.

Some great platforms to engage with your community can be broad case channels on insta, private stories, private instagram accounts, discords, WhatsApp groups, live events, and email newsletters. The goal is to bring people together wherever possible and provide them a common interest in the brand. Whether it’s digital or IRL it’ll go a long way. DO the things that don’t scale.

Audience Building

You need to think about everything in terms of audience clusters. The technical term for it is ERFM clusters - engagement, recency, frequency and monetary value. But let me break this down...

Think of a circle drawn in the sand. You've got most of your shells packed together in the middle, with some spread out towards the edges, and random shells scattered outside the circle. If you needed to find the best shells quick, you'd obviously start with that cluster in the middle, not the random ones spread across the beach. Those middle shells are easier to sort through to find the good ones.

Now think of those shells as customers and that circle as your brand's main interest. Like if your brand is built on skating, underground rap, and footwear - those interests create your circle in the sand.

The goal is simple: start with the shells in the middle of your circle (your core audience), then work your way out to find more shells (new customers) and make your circle bigger over time. I know this might be hard to picture so here is a diagram of what I mean:

When starting on your brand simply focus on your core demographic but also consider when I run out of audience in this core demographic, is there other audiences that I can open up with ease and subtle overlap between my current audience. The trick is to find audiences and interest with some overlap but not a ton. It’s a game of weighing the options between opportunity and safety. The interests with high overlap will be safe vs the interests with low overlap will have a high opportunity. This kinda naturally leans us to our next part… media buying.

Paid Ads for Audience/Revenue Growth

Personally I wouldn’t use ads at this stage in my brand if I am cold starting it with no leverage. I would try to build it organically but I’ll give the sauce if I was absolutely forced.

Similar to the discussion above with audience clusters and interest I take that into consideration with my paid ads strategy. As you will learn from this document… When it comes to media buying, it’s all about matching the objective of the business and building a stage around the business current situation and future wants/needs.

To start off I would keep it simple. If you're truly cold starting the brand (no influencer/celeb placements, no viral stolen product idea, no past day) I would lean into interest only for targeting on conversion campaigns with a mix of boost post spend. Like I said, I'm keeping this section vague in terms of 0-19k per month as there are so many ways to do it but here’s a direct approach.

ABO campaign, 3 ad sets ($10-$100 budget each), for targeting each ad set is an individual interest (if cold starting). If I have one of the couple of levers (data, social proof, pre verified winning product) I would do one ad set-broad no targeting, one ad set with 3-4 interests in it as a cluster (audience size around 100m) and lastly one ad seat as a single interest of my perceived strongest interest. Keep it at 1-3 creative per ad set active at a time depending on budget. Rule of thumb is around $30  per creative in testing to decide if it’s a winner or not. So build a. budget pacing plan accordingly. I would prefer to get my tests done in under 3 days. I would launch all of this on the lowest cost auto bid. Also to mention, for tracking in these stages just use the normal pixel set up in Shopify with the Facebook app and set data sharing to maximum. No need to invest into 3rd party platforms or use utmost in these stages.

Now let’s say things start working simply double the ad set budget every couple of days if it’s profitable. If you try to double it again and it turns profitable… bring it back to the previous budget and cut underperforming creative to open up room for new creative and then try scaling it back up with stronger creative. This media buying structure will support you on the way up to $330-$500 in daily spend.

If you started with single interest and you get sales profitably try launching an interest stack first and if that performs launch and broad ad set all with your winning creative as your vertically scaling budgets in your pre existing single interest ad sets. If either board or your interest stack don’t work- turn them off and revisit them later when you have more data. Preferably you want about 50 conversions before it even makes sense to take a stab at.

I would also mix in boost post spend using interest targeting to gain social proof around posts. I would weigh my boost spend at double of what I am spending on ads. I would value awareness, impressions and engagement in these early stages over direct sales. If you need to scale quickly and have something proven going for you, put the majority of budget into conversions and not boost spend. It is very important to understand the ratio of boost spend compared to conversions… Like I said personally I would spend double on boost compared to conversions in the early stages where audience growth is a higher priority objective.

Now let’s talk about if the campaign does perform. If you simply don’t see any results after spending a couple hundred you need to re-evaluate. First course of action if you launched the second option with an interest cluster and broad ad set, I would cut the broad ad set and interest stack and leave the single interest. I would then launch the same creative one being tested from the start with two more individual interests. Take the concepts above when choosing interest and choose stuff with a 7 on the opportunity scale and a 3 on the risk side if we were to put a number scale to it. If this still doesn’t work after an additional couple hundred in spend. It’s time to rethink creativity. Start diving into the concepts above and just keep testing on those 3 individual interests till you find something that works.

If you still don’t get any purchases after heavy creative testing, it may be a social proof problem or a product problem. Shoot for those hail Maries on trying to get cool people wearing it by just giving it out for free or paying for placements. If you see no luck with this it may be time to re-evaluate the product which is hard to accept sometimes but it’s all part of the process. Trial and error is the real secret sauce lol. Be willing to emotionally detach where needed.

Creative to Ignite Scale

For creativity I can give a definitive answer in these stages as there’s really no rhyme or reason to what works so be open to trying all types of things. The only way to find what works is to test. Just think back to that core audience we were talking about and make sure to understand the type of content that customers would engage with. In terms of formats I would look into concrete flat lays, white background product shots, model shots, life style/studio content bits, photos of customers or celebrities/influencers wearing it, reels showing bets on production of product, engagement farming formats that are built to provide an engaging visual experience and not sell the product (think a skate clip, or an edit of cars drifting).

You want to look at content in two segments with a cross over in the middle ground. Content that gets customers to convert and content that gets customers to engage. In our newsletter we go into much depth and provide real data on what type of content converts best for your agency's brand and also what content gets engaged with. But we gotta keep that onwards yak. But think very hard about this once. If you are trying to convert cash in the early stages, build content very far left on the side that it is built to get engagement and build content very hard right that is built to convert. Stay away from the stuff that tries to accomplish both. Reason being is that your dollars will be best spent on boost for content that is made to get engagement where content built to convert well works best on sales campaigns. For all content that is built to convert KEEP IT A SINGLE ASSET PLACEMENT ON INSTAGRAM FEED AND NOT A CAROUSEL. You will thank me later. Now I understand there is a middle ground here- not gonna lie our best performing creative is flat lays on a concrete background. This is best performing across.the board on both boost post and conversions. SO take this with a grain of salt but use this theory when trying to understand how to best invest your dollars on ad content and campaign objectives.

Pre-Order vs. Pre-Made

And for our next topic- the most frequently asked question in this phase. Pre order or pre-made. My honest answer to this is if you can’t afford pre made or you can’t get creative enough to get a couple units on hand at low cost… you shouldn’t be starting a brand in the first place. I'm a true believer of having skin in the game and putting your money where your mouth is. It will force you to design better products if you have to self fund the initial inventory. Keep the incentives aligned for yourself. And if you have money tied up in inventory but will force you to go that much harder. To also mention this will set you up for the long run once you do start acquiring customers. Those first customers are your most important so make sure to provide a positive experience. Your brands integrity is all you got in the end of the day and long shipping times because you chose to do the pre order method will fuck you in the long run. This shit isn’t supposed to be easy. Don’t believe the ATL money glitch guys lol. Pre order will work initially but we are talking about longevity here. In our newsletter we will make sure to have an article about pre order vs pre made with data to back the difference in long term performance. The data is staggering.

With this being said, be smart about inventory. The last thing you want is unsold inventory sitting in your warehouse. Even nine-figure brands struggle with inventory management - you'll never get it perfect, but you can be strategic about it.

Drops vs. 24/7 Evergreen

This brings us into our next most frequently asked question- Drop based or 24/7? I'm honestly both ways on this one and it truly comes down to whether you are doing pre order or premade. I think drop based brands are great and can be scaled far but I will admit you do start to hit a bit of a glass ceiling a lot sooner than a 24/7 brand per se. My favorite model right now and what we see performing best is a hybrid model. This is where you always have core products available and you do limited product drops to feed the hype into the core 24/7 items available. If you are pre ordering inventory this is the easiest model to be able to manage risk and will be the best set up if paid ads are a big piece of your marketing strategy. In the early stages you are simply trying to build your core set of products which requires you to play at low risk and order on a wide range of things at low volume. Once you find winning skews or grade A inventory- just simply place another order on those products. If you go out of stock on that product while you are waiting on an order to come in… build hype around a restock. For products that are more risky order even lower stock in hopes of a quick sell out implying hype and demand around new concepts which could be the catalyst to momentum that new product needs to be considered a winner down the road.

PR/Seeding

Something to mention outside of media buying and content strategy. I think the biggest lever to focus on in the stage outside of the product is the people wearing it. Do everything you can to get your product into as many closets as possible. Be mindful of the exposure you will receive from the products that are in peoples closets but don’t get hung up on it as more is truly merrier. What I mean by this is, try to get the people who get your product early to post about it but at the same time don't jeopardize the long term relationship for the quick post. I've seen some huge brands that build amazing relationships with not only their customers but celebrities early on that 5-10 years down the road post it all the time for free just because they love the brand. Don’t forget tho, in this space money talks and bull shit walks. You just gotta read the situation properly.

Customer Engagement/Re-Engagement

Second to this, the next best lever is engaging with your customers. I don’t care if you only have 5 or 1000 customers… DM every single one of them and build a relationship. This goes so much longer than people really think. Also engage with people on story, reels and in the comments. Make it engaging for them and fun. Make them feel like they are a part of something… this is what community is about. MAKE SURE TO ESTABLISH IT EARLY. The quickest growth I have seen always comes from within.

On this note, unless you are doing above 25k per month. Email marketing really doesn’t make sense. I would give sms a stab before email any day. More direct and personal. Both can be effective ways of engaging with customers but be mindful of your list sizes and if it actually makes sense for you in terms of time and money. You can always revisit it down the road if it doesn’t work for you early on.

Website

Also in these stages don’t worry too much about your website. I'd recommend getting a pre-built theme from someone like Seaggs (link on last page of document) and setting that up + customizing it yourself. It’s easy and will force you to understand your way around Shopify. Random note but put a ton of time and effort into your email/sms opt in page. Very very important you have this dialed for the long term.

Keep Fueling Growth

If you have something that works don’t get comfortable-keep pushing boundaries. This is super important. Things can truly change over night. Always have more aces up your sleeve. The minute things start to go dry you should have a plan of attack ready to deploy that you took what time to do RnD on and you know well. This is the biggest area where I see brands fail. If you are having a hard time with new ideas and re-evaluating your game plan for when things start to go dry, maybe its time to consider hiring an agency, consultant or joining groups where people are in the same situation to share ideas. The areas where I would focus on doubling down for growth would be in the order- customer experience, product, PR/Organic growth, content, media buying.

Don’t buy the lambo once you start seeing a little bit of profit. Re-invest the money back into growth. Go improve your shipping times, throw a pop up, hire a customer service team, delegate your production, hire a designer, drop a bag on that celebrity placement you always wanted, get a long form high production video made, bring on a consultant, hire an agency. Save the lavish lifestyle for when you get to a point where you don’t want to scale further. Great scale requires cash… don’t burn it up. It will literally out your growth in a choke hold. This is truly the leading cause of failed brands. Over the last 7 years we have seen it happen over and over again.

Some Random Sauce

To kinda wrap up this section I will leave you with some mind bending sauce that will allow you to grow hack effectively. Check out this thing called lead enforce. You can scrape competitors' followings on instagram and extract a large amount of users' emails, first and last name. You can then use these audience lists as custom audiences in Facebook. If you apply audience expansion to these custom audiences it will run similar to an interest or an LLA. If you want to test these alongside your simple interest, we’ve seen it hit really hard for us. Just make sure to have audience expansion selected on the ad set level or else the audience sizes will be too small. You can also stack these audiences if audience sizes are an issue.

You can also test out objectives such as lead gen, traffic, and engagement to supplement boost spend. I would not recommend doing this unless you have a very strong understanding of paid ads. It can work against you very negatively if you don’t approach it right. Maybe consult an agency on this one.

Also another random thing to squeeze some extra juice out of this phase is this app called live recovery. If you're fluent with klaviyo and are comfortable navigating it, I would recommend manually setting up email flows and sms flows in this phase. If you're not comfortable with this and don't want to hire an agency just use live recovery. It’s an AI cart check out recovery assistant. They receive a text from an AI assistant essentially trying to recover the customer's cart. We have seen massive success with this.

As we start to creep over the 6-7 figure a year horizon the mind set completely adjusts and the practices become very different when it comes to keeping those MoM gains going up.

Lastly I want to mention, take everything you hear from anywhere out there with a crazy grain of salt. The truth is, all strategies work. There is no right or wrong way. It simply comes down to what you implement, how you implement it, and when you implement it. I'm simply trying to provide general patterns that can be backed by data on what we see that works.

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